Dual Sonic CRT: Poorly Timed Viruses and Class T Snake Wrestlers

[ShakeResounding]

Introduction​

Hey, everyone! Been all of… eh, a few weeks. This time, we’re tackling two different continuities that have some upgrades on the horizon. Those being the IDW Continuity and the X continuity. Let’s get right to it.

IDW Continuity​

Some crazy lunatic decided to calculate the KE of Super Silver lifting up the Metal Virus from the Earth. As the high-end was accepted, Super Forms go from 5-B to 5-A (538 Yottatons) and gain Class Z Lifting Strength. This only scales to Super Sonic and other Super Forms, obviously. Psuedo-Supers like Master Overlord don't really count.

Speaking of Master Overlord, he upscales from Silver’s Lifting Strength (which is Class T). That same lunatic who did the previous calc also calculated Sonic, Knuckles, and Shadow overpowering Metal Overlord’s grasp, which buffs a decent amount of the cast from Class K to Class T. But the Low Tiers still get some love, as they can scale to Class 5 from Tangle’s calc.

As a cherry on top, a calculation was accepted that puts the IDW cast at High Hypersonic, Since Sonic and Shadow can combat one another (especially since their fights usually require them to not hold back), the feat scales to their Combat, Reaction, and Travel speeds. So just a flat rating works. Sonic also did this . And since the feat is only 1.25x away from High Hypersonic+, I believe it warrants a buff to that Speed tier for Sonic and those comparable (or superior) in speed to him. Sonic was exhausted by the time he had done the feat, and literally had to run nonstop overnight and for several days to keep the infection at bay while being mentally and emotionally taxed. I say it’s more fair to rank him higher when he’s so close to the next Speed tier.

As such, Sonic and those comparable to him get a flat High Hypersonic+ rating. Those who downscale get a “At least/Likely High Hypersonic” for many of them being comparable to either a casual or exhausted Sonic (or being able to fight alongside him, or fight enemies he fought).

X Continuity​

In lieu of the High 5-A upgrades that Sonic X Supers recently went through, there’s a calculation that was accepted that gives them an extra one. So hooray for consistency, it makes it much harder to call it an outlier. It’ll mostly be mentioned for extra justifications in the profiles, but a little goes a long way. Speaking of AP, the Base cast are also in for a decent upgrade. Final Mova being a thicc boi alone produces 31 Gigatons of energy, which Shadow can match and even slightly overpower. Not bad, and gives them an AP buff to boot.

A calc member decided to calculate a scene where Sonic dodges lasers, and this is the result. Pretty neat, and I believe it’s not really contradictory due to Sonic being able to casually outpace natural lightning straight from the crowds. So those comparable to Sonic get buffed from MHS+ to FTL.

But that’s not all. Due to the tradition of Sonic X having some pretty insane Lifting Strength feats for the Base cast, we have Base Shadow physically holding Final Mova in place… To which the Final Mova is comparable in size to a several-hundred kilometer planetoid. So those comparable or superior in strength to Base Shadow jump from Class K/Class M to Class T instead. Those that don’t scale to him in strength should scale from their own feats or be placed at Unknown if required until other feats surface.

TL;DR​

IDW Sonic​

Base Forms= High Hypersonic (Low Tiers)/High Hypersonic+ (High Tiers) and Class 5/Class T LS respectively

Super Forms= 5-A and Class Z LS

Sonic X​

Base Forms= FTL, Class T LS, and an upgrade in AP for the 6-Cs

Super Forms= Extra High 5-A feat

Conclusion​

Pretty simple, amirite? No hax additions or the like, just statistical changes. Maybe it’s time to give Movie Sonic or OVA Sonic some more love after this CRT, who knows? Well, until then.

P.S., Thank you to Psychomaster35, LaserPrecision, Gilad Hyperstar, and Merlight for the calculations above. A round of applause for those who are better at math than us.

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

Nice. I'm in agreement with the changes

 

[BlastX]

Absolute based, I agree

 

[Theuser789]

Looks good

 

[Starbrand_Fan]

Agreed

 

[JED]

Agree

 

[Peptocoptr27]

This was actually the only High 5-A feat for X Super forms I was aware of. I don't actually know the other one lol. Anyway, I agree

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

I 100% agree with any upgrades for Sonic not named Boom.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Obviously, I agree. However, one thing I'd like to mention. I brought this up before, but is everyone comfortable with scaling Super Silver's lifting strength to all Super Forms lifting strength given that the wiki seems to generally agree Base Silver's Psychokinesis > Base characters who scale to him.

 

[ShakeResounding]

This was actually the only High 5-A feat for X Super forms I was aware of. I don't actually know the other one lol. Anyway, I agree

Dumbo lol, there's one already in the profiles. It's what makes them High 5-A to begin with, the feats are just kinda easy to mistake for one another

 

[ElixirBlue]

I agree with the X upgrades

The IDW upgrades however, could you walk me through the scaling?

I agree with Super Silver’s calc.

And, well, you know I don’t think of Metal Overlord as a Super Form but you aren’t using it since the calc for the Base Cast’s Class T. How does Metal Overlord upscale from Base Silver’s LS?

And for speed, how does Amy Rose and Tails scale to Sonic’s speed? I assume they are part of the Low Tiers you mentioned.

 

[LaserPrecision]

And, well, you know I don’t think of Metal Overlord as a Super Form but you aren’t using it since the calc for the Base Cast’s Class T. How does Metal Overlord upscale from Base Silver’s LS?

Metal Overlord was far superior to the Base cast to the point all of them were required to group attack him and exploit his weakness to win. Which is beyond what Super Neo was shown to even do (Effortlessly handle Sonic and Knuckles) and should just drastically scale above Base cast (like Chaos Emerald amped Zavok, but higher via having more Emeralds). It's hard to imagine Silver could overwhelm Master Overlord at all. Especially when Knuckles believed they needed the help of a Super Form level character in order to beat him (Burning Blaze).

And for speed, how does Amy Rose and Tails scale to Sonic’s speed? I assume they are part of the Low Tiers you mentioned.

They downscale from Sonic's High Hypersonic+, and thus are High Hypersonic. It's also because they're shown to fight characters Sonic has (Such as the Deadly six).

 

[ElixirBlue]

Metal Overlord was far superior to the Base cast to the point all of them were required to group attack him and exploit his weakness to win. Which is beyond what Super Neo was shown to even do (Effortlessly handle Sonic and Knuckles) and should just drastically scale above Base cast (like Chaos Emerald amped Zavok, but higher via having more Emeralds). It's hard to imagine Silver could overwhelm Master Overlord at all. Especially when Knuckles believed they needed the help of a Super Form level character in order to beat him (Burning Blaze).

Nope on Metal Overlord upscaling from SuperNeo. The Base Cast could not do anything to Super Neo while the base cast can individually rip apart Metal Overlord. But we can get into that scaling later.

I’m asking if Metal Overlord upscales from Base Silver, since Vector is ripping up Metal Overlord’s Metal with LS and Base Silver has the feat of his Lifting Strength ripping up Metal Overlord’s wings.

They downscale from Sonic's High Hypersonic+, and thus are High Hypersonic. It's also because they're shown to fight characters Sonic has (Such as the Deadly six).

Is there a Calc or a scan showing how much they downscale? Because they could downscale from Sonic by a much higher number, as OVA Tails does with Sonic’s Sonic Boom.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Master Overlord downgrade? Based

 

[LaserPrecision]

Nope on Metal Overlord upscaling from SuperNeo. The Base Cast could not do anything to Super Neo while the base cast can individually rip apart Metal Overlord. But we can get into that scaling later.

I've debated this point before. Super Form grants Invulnerability. Of course they can't damage it. Master Overlord on the other hand doesn't grant Invulnerability. Super Neo Metal Sonic also explicitly stated that Master Overlord was his final form. From a narrative standpoint, it makes no sense either since Master Overlord is essentially the same as Super Neo but MORE (Has the data of Shadow which according to another comic had plotted from the beginning in order to access the form) as well as the Master Emerald.

Him taking damage doesn't mean he's physically weaker, it only means his durability is inferior via lacking invulnerability. Not to mention, Base Sonic clashed with Super Neo (As in repelled one of his attacks) whilst stalling for time for Knuckles to get the Master Emerald.

Master Overlord (They don't refer to it as Metal Overlord in the comic as they treat it as a different form) also required basically everyone to attack him simultaneously and even then were not causing massive damage and were only slowly chipping away at him. They also needed to remove the Master Emerald in order to actually defeat him.

I’m asking if Metal Overlord upscales from Base Silver, since Vector is ripping up Metal Overlord’s Metal with LS and Base Silver has the feat of his Lifting Strength ripping up Metal Overlord’s wings.

Ripping a part of his body off wouldn't require lifting strength on par with his. Just scaling massively above individual Base Form characters should be sufficient.

Is there a Calc or a scan showing how much they downscale? Because they could downscale from Sonic by a much higher number, as OVA Tails does with Sonic’s Sonic Boom.

Nah, no calc. But there is scans of them fighting characters who were capable of fighting Sonic (Deadly Six) albeit they were inferior but could keep up.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Super Neo Metal Sonic also explicitly stated that Master Overlord was his final form. From a narrative standpoint, it makes no sense either since Master Overlord

Wouldn’t Neo Metal’s final form be less vulnerable than Super? There’s also the fact that it was not in Metal’s plan to be power nulled by Shadow, so you can 100% say that everything went as Metal plan.

A more vulnerable form plus unexpected Shadow interference? Sure, the final form he was alluding to was part of his plan but Shadow cutting Neo Metal off from the Super Form wasn’t.

Not to mention, Base Sonic clashed with Super Neo (As in repelled one of his attacks) whilst stalling for time for Knuckles to get the Master Emerald.

Quick reread, Base Sonic never effected Super Neo’s attacks, let alone repelled. That point of Super Neo having the same physical AP as the Base Cast is mute.

also required basically everyone to attack him simultaneously and even then were not causing massive damage and were only slowly chipping away at him. They also needed to remove the Master Emerald in order to actually defeat him.

Well, yes they did. Tails carved Master Overlord in with a Battleship Sonic stated he could take care of himself. That Battleship carved a big hole into Master Overlord.

The Cast was doing damage on him and Rouge’s one-shot Master Overlord’s Metal, even if the AOE wasn’t large.

Also, it was never implied that the Master Emerald anything more to Master Overlord than a power source/fuel, as Sonic stated in the plan to Knuckles and Shadow.

Nah, no calc. But there is scans of them fighting characters who were capable of fighting Sonic (Deadly Six) albeit they were inferior but could keep up.

Could we use those scans and post them? It’s better to use images or calcs to support the ratings as much as possible, rather than the pages just taking us for our word.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Wouldn’t Neo Metal’s final form be less vulnerable than Super? There’s also the fact that it was not in Metal’s plan to be power nulled by Shadow, so you can 100% say that everything went as Metal plan.

No, because Super Form provides hax such as Invulnerability whereas his Master Overlord form is just a massive amp from what we're shown and told. Similar to Metal Overlord from the games who was vulnerable unlike the Super Forms but this time powered by the Master Emerald directly.

Was does his Super Form being knocked out of him have to do with the narrative that Master Overlord is his final and strongest form. Especially when he states AS Super Neo Metal Sonic that he didn't even need his Final Form to defeat Sonic and Knuckles, implying it's stronger himself:

"I am disappointed. Truly. You're defeated, and I didn't even need to unleash my final form-"

Why would he plot to go Master Overlord and imply he might've needed it to defeat Sonic and Knuckles if his Super Form was vastly superior? I mean, you can argue it is superior in some ways thanks to Invulnerability and hax and what not, but beyond that it's pretty cut and clear Master Overlord > Super Neo.

Quick reread, Base Sonic never effected Super Neo’s attacks, let alone repelled. That point of Super Neo having the same physical AP as the Base Cast is mute.

Yes, he did indeed repell/clash with Super Neo which can be seen in the scan above before Super Neo quickly rushes to stop Shadow from getting the Master Emerald. In fact they clash at least 4 times in the panel. I'm not trying to argue Super Neo = Base characters, but that he like Master Overlord isn't so unfathomably above that Base characters can't do anything to fight him at all.

Well, yes they did. Tails carved Master Overlord in with a Battleship Sonic stated he could take care of himself. That Battleship carved a big hole into Master Overlord.

The Cast was doing damage on him and Rouge’s one-shot Master Overlord’s Metal, even if the AOE wasn’t large.

Also, it was never implied that the Master Emerald anything more to Master Overlord than a power source/fuel, as Sonic stated in the plan to Knuckles and Shadow.

Said ship collision would thus kill Sonic logically as well as all Base cast characters as it could harm Master Overlord. It's not really that big of a factor here, since again, it was a combined effort to cause chip damage to Master Overlord. It's quite clear he scales above an individual Base cast member by a significant amount, if we're going to argue the damage caused proves he's not above Base Form characters since even Rouge, and other low tiers can harm he, that would imply Metal Sonic got weaker from transforming.

It's also clearly a marginally BIG gap between him and the cast as again, Knuckles is practically praying that Blaze can still use the Sol Emeralds to help defeat him:

"Amy! Do you read me? Neo took the Master Emerald and transformed! Please tell me Burning Blaze is still around for heavy support!"

Final point I'd like to make regarding Master Overlord being superior in statistics (Besides durability due to lacking Super's invulnerability). It was flat out stated that Master Overlord was a level up from Super Neo Metal Sonic and used the toughest aspects of Sonic, Eggman, Shadow, Metal Sonic, AND the Master Emerald most importantly meaning he was using more of the Master Emeralds power and thus should logically be stronger (Which should already be deduced from the fact that he's basically Super Neo + Shadow's bio-data):

"Neo was two steps ahead of them though. Using the power of the Master Emerald, he upgraded himself again to Super Neo Metal Sonic. Then he escalated things to the next level. Becoming Master Overlord-- The toughest parts of Sonic, Shadow, Eggman, the Master Emerald, and Metal Sonic all in one!"

Toughest can be synonymous for strength which is clearly the case here as the other definition would imply he can tank/endure more when that's clearly not the case given he doesn't have hax like Invulnerability that the Super Forms possesses. Meaning again, he utilized the Master Emerald's power to the highest/strongest degree. Wgy is that important? Because Neo Metal used the Master Emerald to become Super to begin with. It's quite cut and clear once again that narratively Master Overlord is Super Neo's superior in terms of physical capabilities. It also doesn't make sense why Super Neo would want to transform into Master Overlord if it were indefinitely weaker. It makes no sense within the context of the story.

Could we use those scans and post them? It’s better to use images or calcs to support the ratings as much as possible, rather than the pages just taking us for our word.

Sure, but I'm about to go to bed. I would heavily suggest the issue where Espio is shown to pummel Zazz (Issue 28):

Yes, he was invisible, but we were shown earlier on that Zazz was able to catch Espio through the invisibility. Also given that he managed to do any damage at all (lbeit he was admittedly inferior) should show he scales to characters who scale to Sonic. Espio himself is a low tier meaning others could scale from this. If not this, I would suggest the fight between Amy Tails and Zomom as they land several blows in that fight from what I recall (Occured 1 issue prior).

I'll read any response you make tomorrow and reply. Till then, that's all I have to say. Hopefully, I was able to clear some things up.

 

[Theuser789]

Master Overlord's rating shouldn't even matter, Silver didn't even use his TK agaisnt the man, only to save all the other characters (who left him open to Metal), unlesss Silver is dumb, his TK shouldn't work on Master Overlord

 

[LaserPrecision]

Master Overlord's rating shouldn't even matter, Silver didn't even use his TK agaisnt the man, only to save all the other characters (who left him open to Metal), unlesss Silver is dumb, his TK shouldn't work on Master Overlord

His TK WAS able to tug at Master Overlords wing to be fair:

I don't think holding on to a wing translates to having superior lifting strength though. Moreso a durability thing since he was trying to rip the wing off.

Given that within the same scene he shakes everyone off at the same time immediately making several characters lose their grip on him, that should be enough to showcase his Lifting Strength > Everyone's there.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Given that within the same scene he shakes everyone off at the same time immediately making several characters lose their grip on him, that should be enough to showcase his Lifting Strength > Everyone's there.

No, cause shaking people off factors in gravity. Several of them can't fly and Silver knows it. Even if Silver remain unaffected, he'd still stop to save the others from falling.

 

[LaserPrecision]

No, cause shaking people off factors in gravity. Several of them can't fly and Silver knows it. Even if Silver remain unaffected, he'd still stop to save the others from falling.

So characters who hypothetically have significantly weaker lifting strength and easily remove characters with far superior lifting strength by shaking? That doesn't seem quite right to me. Obviously for the people who weren't hanging on it would make sense they fell, but given they were tearing parts of him up (Like Silver or Tangle, Silver, etc.) it's likely he had to overcome lifting strength.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Wouldn't that means that Base cast overpowering Master Overlord's grip be an outlier as Master Overlord > Super Neo Metal ~ Super Sonic >>>>>>>>> Base Sonic?

Considering that the games are canon to IDW, in which 3 Super forms were needed to defeat Master Overlord (and since Sonic and Neo Metal do mention their previous encounter in Sonic Heroes), then I would say that the entire thing when Master Overlord was defeated would be PIS

 

[ShakeResounding]

Master Overlord wasn't in Heroes, that was METAL Overlord. There's actually a difference between the two

And calling an entire segment an outlier because it makes no sense is a lazy solution. We look at it, find the parts that DO make sense, and work from there. Call the fight an outlier if you will, I have no problems with that and I'd even be inclined to agree. But three powerhouses of the Base Cast overpowering the Lifting Strength of a psuedo-Super Form is something I don't believe has any contradictions in the narrative

 

[ElixirBlue]

No, because Super Form provides hax such as Invulnerability whereas his Master Overlord form is just a massive amp from what we're shown and told. Similar to Metal Overlord from the games who was vulnerable unlike the Super Forms but this time powered by the Master Emerald directly.

Metal Overlord wasn't vulnerable to the Base Cast in the game like Master Overlord. Metal was still in the process of evolving and produced several weakpoints only certain characters could attack at a time. Master Overlord didn't have such gimmick and could be attacked by everyone at the same time and wasn't in the process of evolving.

And no, Super Forms gives Stat Amps to Base characters, like Base Sonic vs the Time Eater vs Super Sonic vs the Time Eater.

Was does his Super Form being knocked out of him have to do with the narrative that Master Overlord is his final and strongest form. Especially when he states AS Super Neo Metal Sonic that he didn't even need his Final Form to defeat Sonic and Knuckles, implying it's stronger himself:

"I am disappointed. Truly. You're defeated, and I didn't even need to unleash my final form-"

Why would he plot to go Master Overlord and imply he might've needed it to defeat Sonic and Knuckles if his Super Form was vastly superior? I mean, you can argue it is superior in some ways thanks to Invulnerability and hax and what not, but beyond that it's pretty cut and clear Master Overlord > Super Neo.

Because Shadow power nulling Neo Metal wasn't part of his plans, which in turn broke that narrative. It makes sense, since Master Overlord behaved more desperately than Super Neo Metal.

Yes, he did indeed repell/clash with Super Neo which can be seen in the scan above before Super Neo quickly rushes to stop Shadow from getting the Master Emerald. In fact they clash at least 4 times in the panel. I'm not trying to argue Super Neo = Base characters, but that he like Master Overlord isn't so unfathomably above that Base characters can't do anything to fight him at all.

I would argue against the notion that Super Forms aren't unfathomably above the Base cast without haxes. Yes, in IDW, we don't have that much info in terms of scaling for it to be clear. But if IDW is trying to bounce off the games, Super Forms are suppose to be unfathomably superior, from fights like Solaris/and other Universal+ characters Base Sonic doesn't fight himself. Granted, I'm being non-specific outside of Solaris, because most of them are in environments Base Sonic can't fight in, in fairness.

And Super Sonic is known to hold back in a fight, as he was against Prefect Chaos, which Super Sonic's goal wasn't to defeat him but clean the hatred from his heart. Super Neo Metal was clearly playing around with Sonic, as shown by his demeanor.

Said ship collision would thus kill Sonic logically as well as all Base cast characters as it could harm Master Overlord.

They all can harm Master Overlord and has shown it. Their individual attacks have a smaller surface area than the ship.

if we're going to argue the damage caused proves he's not above Base Form characters since even Rouge, and other low tiers can harm he, that would imply Metal Sonic got weaker from transforming.

Yes. Shadow's power nulling Super Neo took away Neo Metal's initial plan. I do agree Master Overlord would scale above the Base cast except for Silver's Lifting Strength and Blaze's heat from her flames.

It's also clearly a marginally BIG gap between him and the cast as again, Knuckles is practically praying that Blaze can still use the Sol Emeralds to help defeat him:

"Amy! Do you read me? Neo took the Master Emerald and transformed! Please tell me Burning Blaze is still around for heavy support!"

Final point I'd like to make regarding Master Overlord being superior in statistics (Besides durability due to lacking Super's invulnerability). It was flat out stated that Master Overlord was a level up from Super Neo Metal Sonic and used the toughest aspects of Sonic, Eggman, Shadow, Metal Sonic, AND the Master Emerald most importantly meaning he was using more of the Master Emeralds power and thus should logically be stronger (Which should already be deduced from the fact that he's basically Super Neo + Shadow's bio-data):

"Neo was two steps ahead of them though. Using the power of the Master Emerald, he upgraded himself again to Super Neo Metal Sonic. Then he escalated things to the next level. Becoming Master Overlord-- The toughest parts of Sonic, Shadow, Eggman, the Master Emerald, and Metal Sonic all in one!"

Toughest can be synonymous for strength which is clearly the case here as the other definition would imply he can tank/endure more when that's clearly not the case given he doesn't have hax like Invulnerability that the Super Forms possesses. Meaning again, he utilized the Master Emerald's power to the highest/strongest degree. Wgy is that important? Because Neo Metal used the Master Emerald to become Super to begin with. It's quite cut and clear once again that narratively Master Overlord is Super Neo's superior in terms of physical capabilities. It also doesn't make sense why Super Neo would want to transform into Master Overlord if it were indefinitely weaker. It makes no sense within the context of the story.

Thats not strange or proven necessary. The Base Cast using a Super Form to take out something stronger than them is smart (Example from the Games, possibly Super Egg Robot from Sonic Advance) but Master Overlord's defeat showed Burning Blaze wasn't necessary.

Master Overlord escalating things to the next level is likely a hyperbolic statement for Ian Flynn to have group fight. It's hyperbolic, since the events that played out, Master Overlord not getting a hit on any of the Base Cast, Master Overlord getting hit around like a rag doll, his speed not blitzing anyone outside of being big unlike Super Neo Metal, doesn't show he is superior in stats but size.

Meaning again, he utilized the Master Emerald's power to the highest/strongest degree.

Can't even assume that, Sega isn't letting IDW treat the Master Emerald any differently from a normal Chaos Emerald atm, which is why Sonic and Silver didn't use the Master Emerald to go Super at the end of the Metal Virus arc. "Highest/strongest degree" has no meaning, because its an assumption that "highest/strongest degree" exists in IDW.

"Highest/strongest degree" is like saying Master Overlord became Hyper Sonic tier.

Sure, but I'm about to go to bed. I would heavily suggest the issue where Espio is shown to pummel Zazz (Issue 28):

Yes, he was invisible, but we were shown earlier on that Zazz was able to catch Espio through the invisibility. Also given that he managed to do any damage at all (lbeit he was admittedly inferior) should show he scales to characters who scale to Sonic. Espio himself is a low tier meaning others could scale from this. If not this, I would suggest the fight between Amy Tails and Zomom as they land several blows in that fight from what I recall (Occured 1 issue prior).

I mean, everyone is capable of fighting Sonic, even Amy in Sonic Heroes. I meant with just IDW itself, not using the event of Lost World, how much does the characters downscale from Sonic, using numbers instead of "Low tier", "Mid tier", etc?

 

[LaserPrecision]

Actually, personally, I don't think Super Neo Metal Sonic scales to Super Sonic at all. He's depicted as inferior to Master Overlord and he was hurt, albeit Sonic stated it would require everyone to do anything as he alone wasn't causing any lasting damage. Also fits in with how Sonic could hold him off a little and clash with him. Whereas Super Sonic was able to quickly no-diff Emerald-powered Zavok.

Also, again, Master Overlord is exclusive to the comics. Sonic Heroes had Metal Overlord. Similar, but different. Master Overlord has the biodata of Shadow, Sonic, Eggman, and used the Master Emerald to transform.

I made a calc explicitly for Master Overlord that would place him at Island level. I planned to downscale Super Neo from there. As his best feat is beating up two Base Form characters and didn't have to fend off an entire hord.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Alright then. If so, then Metal would just upscale from Silver's Class T calc

It could be like with Super Mecha Sonic who isn't as strong as Super Sonic

 

[LaserPrecision]

Metal Overlord wasn't vulnerable to the Base Cast in the game like Master Overlord. Metal was still in the process of evolving and produced several weakpoints only certain characters could attack at a time. Master Overlord didn't have such gimmick and could be attacked by everyone at the same time and wasn't in the process of evolving.

Metal Overlord WAS however vulnerable to the Super cast (I don't recall the opposite being the case). He wasn't Invulnerable by any means as the Super Forms are.

And no, Super Forms gives Stat Amps to Base characters, like Base Sonic vs the Time Eater vs Super Sonic vs the Time Eater.

That's a misinterpretation of what I said. I stated that Master Overlord only gave him a massive amp. Super gave him a less significant amp but hax like Invulnerability (likely Chaos Control too), and Energy beams. Not to mention, the Comics follow the games events, and we don't scale Mecha Super Sonic to Super Form characters, so why would Metal be any different (Especially since everything dictates Master Overlord > Super Neo).

Because Shadow power nulling Neo Metal wasn't part of his plans, which in turn broke that narrative. It makes sense, since Master Overlord behaved more desperately than Super Neo Metal.

Alright, are you trying to imply the attack made Neo Metal Sonic significantly weaker? Or are you just saying it wasn't part of his plan to happen? Of course THAT wasn't, but his plan from the beginning WAS to become Master Overlord as it's superior to the Super Form.

Yes. Shadow's power nulling Super Neo took away Neo Metal's initial plan. I do agree Master Overlord would scale above the Base cast except for Silver's Lifting Strength and Blaze's heat from her flames.

Makes sense, Blaze's fire would require heat resistance, durability doesn't negate it. Lifting Strength I disagree with since he's far above Base Form characters.

Yes. Shadow's power nulling Super Neo took away Neo Metal's initial plan. I do agree Master Overlord would scale above the Base cast except for Silver's Lifting Strength and Blaze's heat from her flames.

Nothing implied it made him weaker. Ir simply removed the Super Form.

Master Overlord escalating things to the next level is likely a hyperbolic statement for Ian Flynn to have group fight. It's hyperbolic, since the events that played out, Master Overlord not getting a hit on any of the Base Cast, Master Overlord getting hit around like a rag doll, his speed not blitzing anyone outside of being big unlike Super Neo Metal, doesn't show he is superior in stats but size.

This seems like dismissing a statement to fit the narrative that Master Overlord is weaker than he is. In the panel RIGHT before it states he upgraded himself by transforming, then states he escalates things FURTHER by becoming Master Overlord. I also figured his size would be detrimental since it limits his movements a lot more. He was also shown to tag Base high tiers (Sonic, Shadow, and Knuckles) when he grabbed them both and stated he'd finish them off later.

Can't even assume that, Sega isn't letting IDW treat the Master Emerald any differently from a normal Chaos Emerald atm, which is why Sonic and Silver didn't use the Master Emerald to go Super at the end of the Metal Virus arc. "Highest/strongest degree" has no meaning, because its an assumption that "highest/strongest degree" exists in IDW.

"Highest/strongest degree" is like saying Master Overlord became Hyper Sonic tier.

The statement makes it quite blatant that Master Overlord is utilizing

I mean, everyone is capable of fighting Sonic, even Amy in Sonic Heroes. I meant with just IDW itself, not using the event of Lost World, how much does the characters downscale from Sonic, using numbers instead of "Low tier", "Mid tier", etc?

The games are connected to the comics, I figured that would be sufficient.
all the data and the Master Emeralds to HIS highest degree. Not the highest degree in general. This would mean Super Form ISN'T his best/toughest utilization of the form as Master Overlord is stated to be so.

 

[ShakeResounding]

I'm with Laser on this Lifting Strength bit. If Silver could've stopped Master Overlord with his TK, he would've done-so. Silver is always a "I'll do whatever I can to help" sort of hero in part due to his naivety, which leads him to do rash things even if they lead in failure. It's part of his character. But he didn't even ATTEMPT to do such because he knew it wouldn't work. And we know for certain this is what it was because he even attempted to use TK on a part of Master Overlord simply to try and rip him apart.

 

[ElixirBlue]

If Silver could've stopped Master Overlord with his TK, he would've done-so.

Haven't read Laser's replay yet but do we have an example of Base Silver's range reaching Master Overlord's size for him to be capable of doing so? Cause we know Silver's LS is greater than Vector and Vector was ripping up Master Overlord's metal shell that wasn't a wing. Silver could crush Master Overlord's metal shell more than Vector but he choose not to do so. Don't think thats necessarily an indicator Vector and Master Overlord's Lifting Strength is greater than Silver.

(Yeah, I'm using Vector in the scaling for LS)

 

[LaserPrecision]

Ripping apart a robot wouldn't require you to have superior lifting strength than whomever you're doing it to. It would require you to have enough lifting strength to bypass their durability. As for Silver having enough range? He was shown to create a giant barrier to stop Zavok from grabbing Metal Sonic and Sonic IIRC. Zavok seems bigger (I believe Sonic stated Master Overlord is only 50 feet tall or so).

Even so, he wouldn't NEED to use Psychokinesis on his entire body. Restraining major parts such as his arms/hands would be the MOST effective as he would no longer be able to fight (Well he still could, but he seemed overly reliant on his hands more than anything else).

 

[ElixirBlue]

Metal Overlord WAS however vulnerable to the Super cast (I don't recall the opposite being the case). He wasn't Invulnerable by any means as the Super Forms are.

No arguments there from me. Commenting to let you know I agree with you on that point.

Alright, are you trying to imply the attack made Neo Metal Sonic significantly weaker? Or are you just saying it wasn't part of his plan to happen? Of course THAT wasn't, but his plan from the beginning WAS to become Master Overlord as it's superior to the Super Form.

Well, yes, because Neo Metal lost the Golden glow of a Super Form then got punched around by Base Shadow. The desperate transformation into Master Overlord doesn't state he needed Super Neo. His final form is greater than his Super Form, I'll agree on that, what I don't agree with that Final Form being Master Overlord, due to Shadow's power null being unexpected in Neo Metal's plans.

We can save the debate of Super Neo and Master Overlord scaling for later, as we both seem to agree Master Overlord isn't a Super Form at that level of Super Sonic. I think Super Neo is but lets save it for another time, since its not in the OP.

Back to LS scaling.

He was shown to create a giant barrier to stop Zavok from grabbing Metal Sonic and Sonic IIRC.

Looking at it, Zavok's hand is slightly larger than Master Overlord's hand, when creating the barrier (This is about range). Zavok is larger than Master Overlord but the example Silver shown isn't large enough to encompass all of Master Overlord.

I 100% in belief if Silver was given the chance, his barrier would block Master Overlord as well.

Even so, he wouldn't NEED to use Psychokinesis on his entire body. Restraining major parts such as his arms/hands would be the MOST effective as he would no longer be able to fight (Well he still could, but he seemed overly reliant on his hands more than anything else).

I'd argue Silver was doing that. He was the only one of the Base Cast who didn't need assistance in removing a wing, while everyone (Including Blaze, oh no...) was helping each other out.

As for Silver not restraining limbs, Silver states he was struggling with the range to save the Cast from falling. The distance of their grouping is making Silver capable of holding back a limb in that story suspect, if that distance was already straining him.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Well, yes, because Neo Metal lost the Golden glow of a Super Form then got punched around by Base Shadow. The desperate transformation into Master Overlord doesn't state he needed Super Neo. His final form is greater than his Super Form, I'll agree on that, what I don't agree with that Final Form being Master Overlord, due to Shadow's power null being unexpected in Neo Metal's plans.

We can save the debate of Super Neo and Master Overlord scaling for later, as we both seem to agree Master Overlord isn't a Super Form at that level of Super Sonic. I think Super Neo is but lets save it for another time, since its not in the OP.

Back to LS scaling.

I wouldn't mind continuing this in DM's.

Looking at it, Zavok's hand is slightly larger than Master Overlord's hand, when creating the barrier (This is about range). Zavok is larger than Master Overlord but the example Silver shown isn't large enough to encompass all of Master Overlord.

I 100% in belief if Silver was given the chance, his barrier would block Master Overlord as well.

The thing is I don't think Silver's Lifting Strength is even superior to Zavok. He was struggling from the looks of things. Not to mention, we saw another one of the Deadly Six with a single Chaos Emerald escape his PK:

Although I've argued that I personally don't believe they used the Emeralds to amp their physical strength, but I don't want to again get off-topic.

It doesn't make much sense to think Silver can overpower someone physically stronger than 3 high tiers simultaneously and powered by the Master Emerald.

Also regarding what you said, his hand is bigger than Master Overlords by your own words, and I stated that if Silver wanted to really defeat the threat if he could, he would restrain something like his hands which were his MAIN form of attack. I don't recall him using any other method of attack throughout the fight. If he could restrain a hand or his hands, I think he would've. But he didn't.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Silver could crush Master Overlord's metal shell more than Vector but he choose not to do so.

Erroneous. That isn't Silver's character. He's literally the epitome of "If I can, I will" in the Sonic franchise. The guy literally goes back in time to prevent any harm from passing his future multiple times throughout his history and you think he wouldn't do this if he could? Even if it were to just stall for time? I don't really buy that.

Beyond that, Silver is a character who is well aware of the capabilities of his powers. He knows his weaknesses and limits well, such as him knowing he can't grab things that are simply too fast for him to lock onto. Neither can he carry so many people at the same time. Silver is knowledgeable on what he can and can't do. And restraining Master Overlord with his TK is something he clearly can't do.

 

[Theuser789]

His TK WAS able to tug at Master Overlords wing to be fair:

I don't think holding on to a wing translates to having superior lifting strength though. Moreso a durability thing since he was trying to rip the wing off.

Given that within the same scene he shakes everyone off at the same time immediately making several characters lose their grip on him, that should be enough to showcase his Lifting Strength > Everyone's there.

Wings are appendages, it's easier to remove a human's nail (that small insects could feasibly do it than to actually kill one, so this doesn't mean much

 

[Theuser789]

This whole Master Overlord debate is the peak of a versus debator cognitive dissonance towards writting and just real life in general

In real life, if you had a shitton of insects like flies and ants or bees or etc. with human inteligence that attacked a human being, they would give lots of trouble to the human, due to their small size and the fact they can just attack weak points like nails or hair and etc. even though they are way weaker and slower than a human, but yet according to the discussions in this thread the human would be considered weaker than the bugs despite reality itself, simply because a human yells when an ant bites their finger

This is the same case, Ian clearly sees the cast versus Overlord as bugs versus humans, that with their small size and cleverness are able to annoy him enough until Knuckles beats him, this doesn't mean the cast is actually stronger than him in anyway. Ian doesn't think "Oh, Metal is tier 5 and the cast is tier 8 so he is 2839137189 times stronger than them so he should be invencible", no writter does that because it's bad writting

 

[LaserPrecision]

Agreed. Whereas a human the size of an ant but invulnerable (And weaker than the normal-sized human but still stronger than the ants by a large margin) would do SIGNIFICANTLY better against a couple of Ants. In fact, it would be completely one-sided.

Not sure if we also want to discuss where to scale to forms of Metal, if we can here and also get that changed, that's fine, but I also don't mind making a new CRT if my calc gets accepted.

 

[ShakeResounding]

If the calc gets accepted while this CRT is ongoing then we'll tackle it here. If not, another CRT should be fine to make.

 

[Theuser789]

Metal is objectively superior to the base cast in his super form and overlord forms, and is Overlord is clearly show narrative wise to be superior to his other forms (outside of certain weaknesses), so his tier only depends on his super form tier

 

[LaserPrecision]

Metal is objectively superior to the base cast in his super form and overlord forms, and is Overlord is clearly show narrative wise to be superior to his other forms (outside of certain weaknesses), so his tier only depends on his super form tier

For what it's worth, I have a calc putting Master Overlord at Island level. Super Neo can downscale from that. Calc can be found here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:LaserPrecision/Master_Overlords_Island_dashing_power
Just needs to be accepted.

There's also the feat of Zavok with a single Chaos Emerald shaking the Floating Island which might yield interesting results. Master Overlord and Super could upscale from whatever the yield would be (or at least scale to).

 

[Theuser789]

I think Super should just scale to other super forms but idrc about that part